“The documenta is an opportunity for me! It’s not an art exhibition but an encounter with the world!”

Mrs Lippitz, what is special about the documenta in your view?

The documenta was always a permanent fixture for me in summer. And I have always maintained that you don’t need to go away in summer as everything is happening right here. For example, there are the documenta 12 Lunch Lectures and the film programme in the Gloria cinema. You get to see films there which just aren’t shown in the normal cinemas. But, of course, it’s not just the exhibition but also the accompanying programme of events which enlivens the city. There is so much going on, such as the fringe theatre and the atmosphere is more intense than in the other years. Everyone in Kassel says that the documenta summers are different. And everyone looks forward to some fresh life in the city.

Are you an art enthusiast?

Yes, although I wouldn’t describe myself in those terms. In fact I’ve always been interested in what is a happening in the city and am generally an inquisitive person.

You have attended all the exhibitions since documenta 4 and have always bought an exhibition pass. Why?

That’s true, I’ve seen them all, albeit with varying degrees of intensity. I bought an exhibition pass so I wouldn’t have to rush around. I think it important to view such major exhibitions by doing a little each day. I feel sorry for the visitors with a 2-day pass! They may hope to absorb everything, but that requires time and not just pure knowledge. It was Buergel who said that (‘art needs space and time’) and it made a lot of sense. But I’m not a collector. My being here has more to do with curiosity, rather than with wanting to see everything. And, of course, with confronting new ideas from outside.

You are a genuine documenta “expert”. Which documenta or which documenta art works do you recall with special fondness? Have you seen a difference in the concepts?

Well I wouldn’t want to single out any particular documenta or comment on the differences. I would say that each documenta was, in its own way, characteristic of its time. That is more important than differences in concepts.

I was particularly struck by Mo Edoga (documenta 9) and his wooden tower. He built a huge tower from found pieces of wood on Friedrichsplatz which you could climb into. And Mo Edoga was a philosopher and used to philosophise with the visitors. It was then that I learned that art is not made for an eternity – as next day the edifice was torn down as planned. And the same will happen to the poppy field this year.

And then there was Shirin Neshat (documenta 11) with her spectacular film. That was at a time in which the “moving art” – film and video had been around a long time – started to take centre stage. But I realised this for the first time.


“I’ve never experienced such a relaxing exhibition as documenta 12.”


What is your opinion of Roger M. Buergel’s concept?

There was an interview with Herr Buergel in July 2006 on the radio. And at the time I recorded it on my cassette recorder, listened to it several times and even copied it for friends. And then shortly before the opening this year I listened to it again and thought to myself: he not only really meant everything he said in the interview – including the possibility of failure – but he has also done it. His concept contains various ideas - for example, I’ve already mentioned his remarks about time and space. And the idea with the Palmenhainen or “circle of enlightenment” really works. I’ve never experienced such a relaxing exhibition as documenta 12!

How can one best prepare oneself for the exhibition? Or do you think one should experience it directly without any preparations?

Of course, you can prepare yourself for it. For example, by listening to radio interviews and reading newspaper articles. And you can obtain a lot of information from the catalogue. Although I think you should read the catalogue only after you’ve seen the exhibition. You’ve really got to come here and have a good look around, and not just follow the signposts. And I also derive a lot of information from observing the reflections of other visitors – that is actually my real medium.

How does that work?

The documenta summer is also special because people remember that they have friends in Kassel; thus we get more visitors here and accordingly there are more people to talk to in the documenta years. So you get the opportunity to experience a range of different perspectives on the documenta. I always send my visitors off without any detailed information and suggest they just look at everything. Afterwards they tell me about their impressions. Each person sees things differently and asks different questions. The chairs are a great help in this - which was Buergel’s intention - namely, that people are able sit to down and reflect. And it is not only the members of guided tours, but also people accompanied by visitors who begin conversing with each other and even with strangers. The chairs were really a great idea.

How do you take your visitors around the exhibition?

Well I just talk about what I like, what appeals to me, what makes me reflect. I’m not your stereotypical visitor thirsting for knowledge. But when I hear people arriving here saying things like: ’And they call that art?!’ Then I reply: ’Well just come with me and I’ll show you the five things I’ve understood and enjoyed.’ That is a good method. First spend time looking before starting to discuss things. Decide first to view five things and then agree to talk about them afterwards. That is a good trick.

What you think about the advisory board and their activities in Kassel, and their relationship with the Kassel population?

The advisory board is, of course, something, which the other documenta exhibitions didn’t have. They’ve shown a lot of commitment in trying to engage with the local population. And I’ve been impressed by that, as it is good thing for the city because it won’t just disappear together with the documenta, but will continue to resonate in each individual. I think it has changed something in the life of the city. Many initiatives were launched on the basis of suggestions and these will be continued - which is the main idea. It has started a learning process.

Did you enjoy the outdoor documenta projects which were open to the public, such as the poppy field?
 
Well as regards the poppy field: I thought it wonderful that the poppies had not yet blossomed by the time the whole media pack arrived for the inauguration. Instead it was us who walked down there every day eagerly searching for the first poppy flowers. And then one day we found four, the next day it was 19, then it was 59, and eventually there were over 200 flowers and that’s when I stopped counting. Besides I knew almost from the outset that the poppy field would blossom. Once I was standing in front of the Fridericianum and heard Herr Leifeld speaking to a few people there. The pigeons were grazing on the bare field and I said: “Herr Leifeld, you are going to have to re-sow the poppies!“ “No!“ he replied, “10 percent of the seeds are soya and the pigeons are only eating the soya.” So I spread the news.

Which works of art at documenta 12 did you like the most? Have you a "favourite” art work which you enjoy viewing often?

Yes, the Ai Weiwei chairs, followed by the room with the Dodiya works because those are things which you only discover gradually. I usually view the Dodiya room from the bench back there on the left. There is always a vacant seat and a good view, particularly of the painting by Zofia Kulik and the “Fountain” by Monastyrsky. The first time I looked at it I didn’t realise how important language is for Dodiya, and started wondering what language that could be. Then I recognised the Indian characters. But no one supplies us with information, we are supposed to find out for ourselves!

Are there any other exhibition rooms which you like particularly?
 
Well from a presentational point of view I like the Neue Galerie best. And when I’m with visitors then we always go up the blue staircase and down the other one. Because what the artist from Bangkok has done there can only be understood when you approach it from below –  you can’t see it properly from above. And then this veil with all those objects (Hu Xiaoyuan), those can best be viewed from above too. In between there is James Coleman – although you never really know what his intention is. You sit there for a while, and then you go up to it and again you think: No, it still isn’t what I thought it was.’ Apart from the great acting, it is a very interesting production and invites you to just sit there and take it all in for a while.

I am also fascinated by what they have done in Wilhelmshöhe. When I’m accompanied by visitors I suggest we go right up to the third floor and straight into the Rembrandt hall!’ Most visitors start off down below, but I always try and find another entrance. And then to the right and left there are Rembrandt’s old men, and in between, this portrait of a woman by Zofia Kulik. And then when you turn around there is Rembrandt’s portrait Saskia which is stunningly presented. That is the highlight in Wilhelmshöhe.

Last question: What do you in Kassel in the four years in which there is no documenta?

[laughing] Well there is a life beyond the documenta. One can travel and take a look at other places. Besides hitherto we have always had the kunsthalle fridericianum and René Block. And he put on beautiful exhibitions which were similar to documenta.

Many thanks for the interview!

Conducted by Claudia Jentzsch.

back